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Old 10-09-2012, 02:59 PM   #1
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"Legal Action over NRC June 14th Vote Notice:


Folks, we have taken initial steps on behalf of Iowa duck hunters and 3rd Zone supporters to contest the manner and procedure by which the NRC reduced the proposed Missouri River Zone by over 69% at their June 14 meeting. For those of you who wish that for once a group would stand up and act, instead of just grumbling, please join our cause, known as Duck Hunters for Due Process. We have engaged an attorney and today we went before the ARRC (Administrative Rules Review Committee) requesting an investigation into the NRC June 14 action.



In this effort, we hope to nullify the change of the 3rd zone boundary adopted on the fly, without adequate notice, and by voice vote at the June NRC meeting, and restore the language approved at the NRC April meeting which was published in the May 2 Notice of Intended Action. If you have questions about the current status of the process and our positions, contact me (Bill Smith) or our counsel, Ryan Maas.







A lot of time and effort has gone into this in preparation. Duck Hunters For Due Process is a grassroots group, organized to advocate for oversight of the NRC on this waterfowl zone issue and build financial support. We ask all of you for your support, as the Action taken in June must not be allowed to stand to set a precedent for future season or zone debates between an agency & the hunting community of Iowa.



Of course, sustaining a committed legal objection to the NRC's action isn't free and some folks have already stepped up. We ask for your financial support to help us maintain this battle for daylight in the process by which the fish and game rules are set.



A fund has been set up under the custody of a law firm in Iowa City (who is not doing the legal work). Jeff 'Gude' Gudenkauf will review and approve all disbursements from the fund. Donations to the legal expense fund should be made payable to "Zimmermann Law Office Trust Account", with "Duck Hunters for Due Process" or "Duck Zones" in the memo line. Send checks to Zimmermann Law Office, attn: Rick Zimmermann, 103 East College St. #209, Iowa City, IA 52240. Donations are NOT tax-deductible and non-refundable (it's expected that expenses will outrun donations).



Thank you to all of you who have voiced your support for restoration of the originally published Missouri River zone boundary. Let's carry the ball into the end zone!

"SHORT SYNOPSIS OF HOW ARRC MEETING WENT WILL BE PUBLISHED LATER TONIGHT"



Duck Hunters for Due Process"
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:33 PM   #2
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Keep us informed please.
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:12 PM   #3
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[FONT=arial][FONT=arial][/FONT][/FONT]

Today we argued that procedure or public protocol was violated over the Iowa 3rd zone process.
Many of the ARRC agreed that it appears, wrong has been done and thus some objected to the June NRC rule. The sticky came down to this. If the ARRC itself confirmed by majority vote that procedure was violated it would open the state up for potential law suit.

So instead of correcting the wrong, it was a punt. You see admitting a wrong was done would have put the burden unto the NRC to prove they didn't break procedure rule. So today what happened was we didn't get enough votes to correct the wrong but to avoid / prolong a law suit.


Now the proof and burden is unto the Iowa Waterfowler to prove, which we do have sufficient evidence that said rules and protocol was not followed. Even today many ARRC members sighted they had issue with the way the NRC had done this.



Today was a Punt if you will ,that is going to force us to FILE THE LAW SUIT. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT.


I again hope to have your support folks and by whatever you can contribute to the legal fight will be helpful in seeing this TO THE END.

By placing the burden of proof on us as a waterfowling community, some may think that WE will not generate the resources needed to bring a suit or to see a suit process through.


I stand committed to the Iowa Waterfowler, I stand committed to a Process that works for the people by the people, I stand committed to wright a wrong even though doing so may cause a little bit of pain.

The fact of the matter is simple folks. If they would have done the right thing in the first place, we would not have to go through this potentially bloody process.

I stand committed to stand up for every last 3rd zone supporter in the state of Iowa who feels they have been cheated out of said opportunity.

We are not going to allow this to be brushed off and a slap on the hand as the only action rendered for accountability.


We must press on folks and please show your support and encourage all that you know to pitch in and help us win the battle. Stay tuned because today was just another meeting that sought to remedy the situation and we must first try all avenues in order to exhaust all options before further action can be taken.


Today they put the Ball in your court, the question is are you willing to to play the game or pack up your gear and GO HOME with your tail tucked between your ass? They are counting on all of you to tuck tail.

What say You. Can you help us win, will you help us battle on?
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:18 AM   #4
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You will myself and my family support.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:13 PM   #5
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Keep this up top folks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:16 PM   #6
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what are your boundry suggestions?
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:22 PM   #7
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It's not a suggestion - it's what the NRC already voted for and approved in April. I-29 south to the border.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:37 PM   #8
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[FONT=Verdana]What is the penalty if found the process was broken- Opps sorry you can't have your zone back but we have put tools in place so this doesn't happen again thanks for bringing this to our attention??????? PUNT[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I would like to hear what Mr. attorney Ryan M projects it's going to cost or COULD end up costing us waterfowlers in money and time to fight this fight and what he thinks our legal chances are of any outcome that is more beneficial to waterfowlers compared to cost and effort to fight. Would be nice to then get another attorney who specializes in state government to also give us a quote.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]What is the pay off, and don't give me that crap about so they don't screw over duck hunters anymore because unless some kind penalty is enforced what is to keep them from doing it again. I know how these systems and processed are put in place to detour people from legal actions due to cost, time etc, waterfowlers are not your typical marathon runners on issues and tire easily. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Sure would be nice to have support from DU, Delta and other Iowa affiliated associations [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]who's primary members are waterfowlers to step up. [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]Should be other non-waterfowling orgs that you would think would step up for hunters rights, but then again they all have their own battles going on .[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]If left up to just waterfowlers, I don't see the funding or manpower lasting long and the state knows this and has time on their hands.......[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]MORE DETAILS< MORE DETAILS---- lots of behind the scenes emails floating around but in order to gather any large amounts or donors support its going to take legal details not hip hip hooray BMP, we got that part....[/FONT]
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feathhd View Post
[FONT=Verdana]What is the penalty if found the process was broken- Opps sorry you can't have your zone back but we have put tools in place so this doesn't happen again thanks for bringing this to our attention??????? PUNT[/FONT]


( Tom yes they can say you screwed up and here is the zone you had the previous which if you look at it the way the zone is now, what's the difference? It is so small many duck hunters cant take advantage of it. It is in an isolated section of the state. But then again we can fight through this season with the way it is and then next year put in place the zone that was voted on in April or the usfws could say your stuck with what you got. Lump it. The attitude you have and this is how it reads to me and I may be wrong but you would rather let them pull this crap without so much as a crack and watch waterfowlers who went by the book get sucker punched because the battle is to long the road costly? Is that right? )

[FONT=Verdana]I would like to hear what Mr. attorney Ryan M projects it's going to cost or COULD end up costing us waterfowlers in money and time to fight this fight and what he thinks our legal chances are of any outcome that is more beneficial to waterfowlers compared to cost and effort to fight. [/FONT]


( E- mail Mr Ryan M and find out. You see I wish you would have attended the meetings, you would know what the legal chances are. The action yesterday and the reason behind it would have given you a very good idea. It was a political to drag this out vs just fixing the wrong, but then if you fix the wrong its an admission that yes rules had been violated. You get the picture yet? The very same reason in my opinion in August, July that the NRC did not do it. The burden of proof would no longer be our responsibility but it would have been the responsibility of the committee under the court of law to prove that they didn't break the rule or violate the law. You get it yet? )
[email protected], <---Council e mail him



[FONT=Verdana]Would be nice to then get another attorney who specializes in state government to also give us a quote.[/FONT]




[FONT=Verdana]What is the pay off, and don't give me that crap about so they don't screw over duck hunters anymore because unless some kind penalty is enforced what is to keep them from doing it again. I know how these systems and processed are put in place to detour people from legal actions due to cost, time etc, waterfowlers are not your typical marathon runners on issues and tire easily. [/FONT]


(The pay off, to cover attorney fees, restore what was the April May NOIA AND YES SO THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN TO IOWA WATERFOWLERS, BE IT YOUR REGION OR ANY OTHER. It is a message Tom, that as hard as it may be and as long as you wish to drag an issue out, hoping that waterfowlers will just simply tire and go home isn't going to happen if you think you can simply bend us over. Maybe 1 good ass kicking is in order so that it is not forgotten. Maybe the ideology, the road is to long , its to costly is the very same attitude that allowed some to do what they have done over the years, BECAUSE THEY BANK ON YOU ONLY GOING SO FAR BEFORE YOU DRAG YOUR REAR BACK UP ON THE PORCH.

Yes many waterfowlers will tire but the ones that stick around to carry on are the ones that are needed to protect those that do tire. )

[FONT=Verdana]Sure would be nice to have support from DU, Delta and other Iowa affiliated associations [/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]who's primary members are waterfowlers to step up. [/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri]( Would agree, it would make things a lot easier wouldn't it? But here we are a small population of the hunting community. DOING THE RIGHT THING EVEN THOUGH IT IS HARD. )[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]Should be other non-waterfowling orgs that you would think would step up for hunters rights, but then again they all have their own battles going on .[/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]If left up to just waterfowlers, I don't see the funding or manpower lasting long and the state knows this and has time on their hands.......[/FONT]


[FONT=Calibri]( You act as if this issue is complicated and its not. You just have to stay around and finish the slow dance is all. Frustration is the killer and as long as you maintain being optimistic even through the BS, its worth the time and effort in the end. Its just a slow run around game Tom, you know it and I know it. The problem here is WE have just as much time as they do and we will do the slow dance STEP BY STEP. )[/FONT]

[FONT=Calibri]MORE DETAILS< MORE DETAILS---- lots of behind the scenes emails floating around but in order to gather any large amounts or donors support its going to take legal details not hip hip hooray BMP, we got that part....[/FONT]


( Maybe you should join in the fight Tom and help us out? Maybe you could play the roll with distribution of details or other areas of PR from council? I suck at it.
I love yah to death Tom, really I do but dam man do we always have to be at odds on every dam thing? Especially this? )


712-274-334
[email protected]
Bill Smith

Feel free to call 24/7/365

The line is always open Tom.
Who said I was at odds, I felt they were legit questions.....bro
You're the one out here asking for support and more importantly MONEY for this issue, after your responses I know where I will keep both of mine. I guess as it sounds if want more info, I have to email here call here go to that meeting or I should have been at another meeting.


Let me see if I can rephrase this and maybe someone with more people skills than Bill and more educated than I,,, such as Gude can answer this.

What Code is being claimed by waterfowlers was violated and what is the penalty for such infraction for the violators?

Kinda like if everyone knew the fine for leaving early before midnight was only $25 bucks, how many you think would risk it?

Makes a BIG difference on getting to Bill's happy land of this never happening again and also raises the question about revamping the system including the NRC, I know the guy running for state rep in my area was around the other day and happened up while I was brushing the blind boat and we had a nice long talk about nothing but this, happen to be one of the founding fathers of REAP so he said he knew what it was like to get screwed by Des Moines politics.

I just want to ensure I am not that guythat will spend $200 bucks to fight that $25 ticket to prove a point when my $200 bucks could be better spent ensuring the fine in rasied to $250 bucks.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:11 PM   #10
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I gave you councils e mail didn't I?

Your point to posting tom was not to get answers, you might say It Is but what you post tells the story of why you really posted. You would rather argue with me vs the Issue. You would rather point out my flaws vs pointing out those responsible. You would rather brow beat me over my PR skills vs those that sucker punched Iowa waterfowlers.

No, I think I have you figured out and why you posted.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:54 AM   #11
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Tom: If you want the long answer about why Delta has not gotten involved you need to contact John Devney from Delta.If you want the short answer,I can give it to you since I discussed this issue with him a few months ago. Delta,or DU for that matter, will not or can not generally get involved in a state issue like this. It has a lot to do with their policy of staying out of local issues that do not necessarily have implications for the entire waterfowling community. Since this is a regional issue,along the Missouri River basin,they will not engage in it,however,they are well aware of what's going on.

Now as far as the penalty,who knows. To be truthful,it doesn't really matter what the penalty is. What matters is the fact that the precedent is now set and anything can be revised without ANY public input. There has been zero accountability for this issue but for others also.

Its easy for you to be sitting in your corner of the state and be critical of what Bill is doing,or what he has accomplished because it has no direct impact on you. To be truthful,you sound a little envious that he has accomplished quite a bit. The problem is,it does impact you,and every other hunter,not just duck hunter,in this state.Just remember that no hunter is insulated from anything any more.If you chose to keep your wallet closed,just be glad some others won't because the season or location that is protected from random or organized violations of state code that is going to be debated because of this may be the spot you are hunting next year!
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Old 10-11-2012, 02:27 AM   #12
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Folks I dont know if this will do any good or not but it doesn't hurt to try.
You know sometimes things are done to make things long and drawn out hoping that as Tom would say, you tire and stay home on the issue or simply just get tired of talking about it. That is what some may expect but I think there are many of us with the will and ability to play the game just as good as any of them.

But here is what I ask of you next. Send these senate members & representatives of the ARRC a message. Tell them what you think of the NRC June action number 1 and 2 tell them what you think should happen to ALL NRC members who did that June vote the way they did.

Tell these Senators & Representatives what you want to happen with these people.

Senate HouseBy doing so they will have a clear understanding that we are many and we will not tire.

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],


[email protected],

[email protected],


[email protected],

[email protected]

Let them know how you wish to see them address the NRC June members who violated our trust as waterfowlers.

Tell them.
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Old 10-11-2012, 10:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Tomandju View Post
Let me see if I can rephrase this and maybe someone with more people skills than Bill and more educated than I,,, such as Gude can answer this.

What Code is being claimed by waterfowlers was violated and what is the penalty for such infraction for the violators?
not sure on the educated part....

I obviously don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but have offered what I can to help move this forward. Unfortunately for many of the guys that were not very active in the process of hunter recommended changes, they don't have a true grasp of how the process played out.

I can't begin to tell you what "code" was violated and would have to defer that to Ryan (he's the educated one), but even those NOT active in the process and/or present at any of the NRC meetings can see with minimal research that protocol was not followed in the reduction of the 3rd zone. So - a quick summary - the NRC drastically amended an approved notice of action with ZERO public notice and/or input, except the 4-5 citizens who attended the June meeting (I believe), to discuss an item that WAS NOT on the agenda for that meeting (thus should not have been heard).

I'm on the tipping point of becoming completely numb to anything the DNR/NRC does and just sitting back and taking what they give us. However, the reason I'd like to stay involved and actually see this through is in the off chance that I decide to become involved again in 3 years trying to get the additional zone in the conversation again. I don't want to go through all of that work only to have the NRC, DNR or whoever is ultimately responsible for this do something so blatantly underhanded to make that work completely go to waste. The Missouri zone will absolutely be of no benefit to me, but I'd like to stay involved for 2 reasons: 1) The proverbial "righting of a wrong" - if they did this once, they'll probably do it again. The NRC needs to know that this kind of thing shouldn't and can't happen - and 2) Bill was VERY supportive and instrumental in helping me get on the right track and in contact with the right people when I was pursuing the larger 3rd zone and helped me gain a great deal of support for said zone. While this doesn't benefit me and I have very little to offer the process from this point forward, I will do what I can because I owe him that and I believe it IS a step in the right direction and added opportunity for at least SOME waterfowlers of the state.
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