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Prices on a good pup

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5K views 29 replies 12 participants last post by  missinIA 
#1 ·
You get what you pay for, if you have 2 outstanding parents that have hunt test titles odds are pretty good you will have hunting pups.
Yes I understand that you can find a good hunting dog in the paper cheaper, but what about health guarantee, if you pay for a quality pup you are getting good hips, eyes, elbows etc, most guarantees for health is 26- 32 months
$650.00 is by no means out of line,
Dean
 
#2 · (Edited)
Re: Outstanding breeding of black and yellow lab puppies

Because both parents have excellent hips and clear (it's not excellent) eyes is no guarantee that the pups will be the same. With that being said, most guarantees, IMO, are worthless. Many will require that you return a pup if the pup is found dysplastic after an OFA test at the age of 24 months. How many people will return a $600 pup that they've had for two years? How much money will you have in a $600 pup after two years? Vet bills and food will exceed $600 the first year.
When I breed a female I will give you the option to return the pup for a full refund or let you keep the pup after it is fixed so the dog can't be bred.
Have these pups been checked for EIC (exercise induced collapse) or CNM?
You said that you are selling "another litter". Is this a repeat breeding? If so, what have the other pups done? Any field trial or hunt test accomplishments?
I would suggest anyone purchasing a pup require that you have all health clearances done on the parents.
The original price of a puppy is the cheapest part of owning a pup.
One more thing, where the parents elbows checked? This should have been done at the same time as the hips. What rating did you get on the elbows?
 
#3 ·
Re: Outstanding breeding of black and yellow lab puppies

Ok I am not going to get into a shouting match on this issue, but I have been running hunt test for the past 9 years, no I am not a pro, no I am not a expert but I have been around the block more than a couple times dealing with dogs.
My wife and I raised Labs for over 20 years we never had a pup returned or asked to have their money back.(We guaranteed all health issues at the time)
We studied the bloodlines on who we would bred our females too if we did not use our own stud dogs.
We were looking to produce quality hunting dogs and to improve on the bloodlines.
I have bought the 2 dogs( I currently have) from quality breeders who stood behind what they produced, both dogs came with a 30 month guarantee, and yes they were tested for everything you can think of.
EIC has not been around for all that many years(as far as being tested) and the top dog who produced more FC in the history of the AKC(Lean Mac)they found out was a carrier but that does not mean it was passed on to all he was bred to, I know both my dogs have Lean Mac as a grandfather and a great grandfather.
I can tell you this right now what I gave for these dogs does not compare to what is being talked about on this site.
I have run against dogs who have competed in the Super Retriever Series, etc, so I have seen some awesome dogs.
I know guys who did not spend half of what is on this site for their dogs and they have MHR titles.
I will close with this the youngest dog in the history of NAHRA(NORTH AMERICA HUNTING RETRIEVER ASSOC.) got her MHR under 2 years of age and that was Derrick Randell and Stella, Stella went on to winning Super Retriever Series and many other titles, she did not come out of the high dollar breeding but her record speaks for itself.
Just giving some information
Dean
 
#4 · (Edited)
Re: Outstanding breeding of black and yellow lab puppies

Ok I am not going to get into a shouting match on this issue, but I have been running hunt test for the past 9 years, no I am not a pro, no I am not a expert but I have been around the block more than a couple times dealing with dogs.
My wife and I raised Labs for over 20 years we never had a pup returned or asked to have their money back.(We guaranteed all health issues at the time)
We studied the bloodlines on who we would bred our females too if we did not use our own stud dogs.
We were looking to produce quality hunting dogs and to improve on the bloodlines.
I have bought the 2 dogs( I currently have) from quality breeders who stood behind what they produced, both dogs came with a 30 month guarantee, and yes they were tested for everything you can think of.
EIC has not been around for all that many years(as far as being tested) and the top dog who produced more FC in the history of the AKC(Lean Mac)they found out was a carrier but that does not mean it was passed on to all he was bred to, I know both my dogs have Lean Mac as a grandfather and a great grandfather.
I can tell you this right now what I gave for these dogs does not compare to what is being talked about on this site.
I have run against dogs who have competed in the Super Retriever Series, etc, so I have seen some awesome dogs.
I know guys who did not spend half of what is on this site for their dogs and they have MHR titles.
I will close with this the youngest dog in the history of NAHRA(NORTH AMERICA HUNTING RETRIEVER ASSOC.) got her MHR under 2 years of age and that was Derrick Randell and Stella, Stella went on to winning Super Retriever Series and many other titles, she did not come out of the high dollar breeding but her record speaks itself.
Just giving some information
Dean
I was not getting into a shouting match at all. I was just trying to ask some questions and hopefully get more information from you that may help others.
If you are not testing for EIC you run the risk of selling pups that have genetic issues. EIC is a serious disease among labs and failure to test for this is wrong on the breeders part. I too have a Lean Mac pup that I run field trials with and she has tested as a carrier. If I neglected to test my dog and bred her to a carrier I would throw 50% carriers and 50% affected. Now I think that proves that failing to test is negligence on the breeders part. On the other hand if I breed to a clear dog than I will get 50% clear and 50% carrier. Breeding to a carrier is not bad as long as you breed to a clear.
Because you have run against and seen some nice dogs doesn't mean crap. I have run against some of the best dogs in the country in field trials but that doesn't mean my dog would throw healthy pups if I didn't have her tested.
I too have spent far more than what the asking price is for these pups. I have a pup out of a female that has 8 AA points and the sire is an FC-AFC and my other female is out of Cosmo. That still doesn't mean my pups will be healthy.
If your pups aren't due for a while you can still have the parents tested or you can have the toe nail clippings of the puppies sent in to U of M for testing.
Because your breeders told you that the pups would be healthy doesn't mean your pups will be healthy. Did they check for EIC or CNM?
You never answered the question about the pups elbows. That should have been done at the same time as the hips and you should've got a rating on them. What was that rating?

What does this statement have to do with the pups and how it guarantees their health?
"I will close with this the youngest dog in the history of NAHRA(NORTH AMERICA HUNTING RETRIEVER ASSOC.) got her MHR under 2 years of age and that was Derrick Randell and Stella, Stella went on to winning Super Retriever Series and many other titles, she did not come out of the high dollar breeding but her record speaks itself."
It is the breeders responsiblity to not pass on genetic defects.
Please post your CNM, EIC, Elbows and eyes (you said they were excellent but that is not a rating they give out) and if you didn't test for these than simply post that.
 
#5 ·
Prices on a good pup??

First of all a good pup is a seperate topic in itself!! Some guys think a pup that simply brings there birds back is a good dog. Others think a dog that can run a 500yd blind, immaculate ob, great eyes, and an outstanding pedigree is a good dog. In a nut shell a good dog is in the eye of the beholder.

Health clearances are a must. I have seen dogs that are EIC affected show no signs of EIC what so ever. One of the dogs is an HRCH and 1 pass short of a MH. The dog is only 3 yrs old and I have no doubt in my mind he would be a GRHRCH if the owner had time to run him. Personally, if the owner decided to breed him(which he wont) I would be first in line for a pup, affected or not.

Prices and pedigree are a percentage game. Obvisously, the better the pedigree the more you pay. I dont care if you have a Lean Mac X a Top 10 producing bitch, they can still produce a turd. The percentage is less but it can still happen. A breeding with a non title no pedigree bitch and sire can produce some great dogs but the percentage is less and a higher percentage of getting a turd.
My dog is a prime example of this. I, like a lot of people, had no clue what they were looking for in a pup. I looked at the price tag and that was it. I got extremley lucky...I paid $400 for a pup with no health clearances out of a JH bitch and a no title Sire but a GRHRC father. He is running amazing cold blinds at 18 months and his career as a hunting/hunt test dog is looking very promising. Without those health clearances those his future health is always on my mind until I get those tests done.

There are a ton of pet peeves I have about breeders(now that I know what im looking at) IMHO alot of them are just misinformed or are breeders who just require the dog to bring the bird back to them. Doesn't make it right but it happens, its guys like Mark L and Dean's job to argue this crap on forums in hope some potential breeder might see this and think twice about it if he doesnt have tests done. So good stuff guys!!

Price should not matter when you are looking for a pup. Its simple...be an educated shopper(unlike me) and know what you are looking for because some breeders are uneducated. Any pro in this country will tell you they have trained dogs with pathetic pedigrees and have ran them in the biggest venues.
Thats my opinion on dog prices but I have a feeling I missed some of this thread because I never saw the OP's question.

PS...
Another one of my pet peeves is when "breeders" advertise a litter and say the dam or sire will have a better title in the future. They don't know that...hell the dog could die tomorrow(god forbid) or the dog may not have been trained worth a damn and has reached its max potential. Sorry, that was a vent:p I've seen it a lot lately.
 
#6 ·
Prices on a good pup??

First of all a good pup is a seperate topic in itself!!
Just to clarify... this topic was created from a past thread, so I titled it (Dean was not the original poster). If you have a better title let me know and I'll change it.

To be honest, I haven't read through the posts.
 
#9 · (Edited)
I hope no one misunderstands me. I am not suggesting the price is too high, as long as the breeder does the necessary testing. The price of a pup is small compared to how much will be spent on a dog over its lifetime. The first year alone vet bills and food would surpass your original investment. In addition to the vet bills and food you will have gas to go training, training equipment (blanks, shells, ducks, e-collar, radios...). The cost of the pup is minimal when you factor in everything else. The cost of losing a good friend is greater. I sure wouldn't want to spend $700 for a pup then another $2,000 training and raising it, two years of my time, only to find out the pup has a genetic problem. Now I have to get rid of the pup.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Mark
That is only true some of the time. Take Chesapeake Bay retrievers. There was no such thing as PRA in chessies 20yrs ago how come now. Line and in breeding(proven). There was no such thing as DM until Distadon Why? I would not have to test for these things if they were not created by us humans in the first place. It is in the nature of us humans to take something that is good and try and make it better and we usually screw things up. I just purchased a high powered chessy pup with 3 DC right up front. She is now 6 months old and showing some issues I hope I can resolve. I paid a very good price for her with her clearances yet there maybe issues. Yet my best Chessy ever cost me was 100.00 and not one clearance was there and she passed away at 13yr with not one health issue Nor did anyone of her offspring have problems. SO not always paying an expensive price for a piece of paper is true. Right now I have a chessy female that is unbelievable in the field with so much natural ability and not one title close up in the pedigree. As far as genetics go. As long as there are chromosomes XY and Z there are always risks I'm just stating 28yrs of experience.
 
#23 ·
I know nothing about chessies genetic defects. With that being said, if a person purchases a lab pup and the parents are tested for CNM and EIC and are out of clear/clear or clear/carrier genetics, the pups will not be affected. Just because an owner claims he had the parents tested you should still check out the parents for yourself (believe it or not some people lie).
Are you somehow suggesting that because your chessie didn't have health clearances that was a good thing? That kind of thinking is like a kid that is afraid of the dark so he pulls the blanket over his head. Just because you don't see the monster in the room doesn't mean there isn't one there. I would rather know what's in the dark than pull a blanket over my head.

I'm just stating 28yrs of experience.
:rolleyes: You got me beat, I just started yesterday.
 
#11 ·
Vickie,

I sent you a PM.
 
#12 ·
One question I have. What makes a 800 dollar lab pup better than a free pup or a 150 dollar pup???? To me it isn't how much they cost it is how well you train them! I have seen non registered labs out perform registered labs trained by pros.
 
#13 ·
One question I have. What makes a 800 dollar lab pup better than a free pup or a 150 dollar pup???? To me it isn't how much they cost it is how well you train them! I have seen non registered labs out perform registered labs trained by pros.
I have had it explained to me like this.

If you wanted to raise a kid to be a pro basket ball player would you rather have a father with no basketball skill or Michael Jordan. It is likley that Jordans son would have more god given talent.
 
#16 ·
For me, if I'm going to pour all that time, effort, and money into training a dog, the last thing I want to skimp on is the pup its self. I want to do every thing in my power to have a dog I can be proud take hunting. A few extra hundred $$ is not that big of a deal to me, considering all the money invested over the span of the dogs life.
 
#17 ·
What do you mean by no free puppy??? I got my registered black pointing lab for free. He had all his shots as well. Buddy sold all his pups but him and he gave me him. He is a great upland and waterfowling dog. If I had the time I would prob. put him in the field trials but I don't have the time. I have his AKC pegiree stuff but havent really looked into it. He is like every dog he eats and craps and barks and sleeps.
 
#19 ·
What do you mean by no free puppy??? I got my registered black pointing lab for free. He had all his shots as well. Buddy sold all his pups but him and he gave me him. He is a great upland and waterfowling dog. If I had the time I would prob. put him in the field trials but I don't have the time. I have his AKC pegiree stuff but havent really looked into it. He is like every dog he eats and craps and barks and sleeps.
I was being sarcastic. Every pup costs $$

You should try running him in a test sometime...its a blast
 
#25 ·
You got me beat, I just started yesterday.
Sarcasm = Do you really believe its constructive:rolleyes:
 
#26 ·
Personally I am your average joe hunter. I don't spend my weekends going to field trials. So when I look for a pup I look for one that has energy who looks like he is going to be a work horse in the field.
I will pay an extra few dollars to buy from a breeder who has trained them all the basics and can provide me with health documents.

I love my current dog because he transitions well from two different fields of hunting waterfowling and pheasant hunting. Is he great at either of them no. He is average at both but he will work his butt off for me. I have watched him make retrieves that would have put pro dogs to shame and watch him flub a few short simple ones. I love him either way because for the most part he does what I need him to do.

My point is if I can find another dog that transitions well and does what an average joe hunter needs him to do then I say I have bought a good pup. He can either be free or 1000 dollars depends on what I find when I am looking.
 
#28 · (Edited)
First off I would like to apologize to the two people that sent me private messages that I hurt their feelings. My intentions were not to hurt anyone's feelings, but rather help prevent some heart ache down the road. If you wish to purchase a lab and only want to spend the equivilent of two tanks of gas on the friend you will have for the next twelve+ years that's your decision. I do want to make it clear that I am not selling puppies and that I have nothing to sell. I am simply taking my time to share this information with you.
I would also like to mention I believe that, this is a puppy buyers market, and I think you can still get a really nice pup, with clearances at a decent price. I would not recommend trying to talk a seller down on price, but instead let them know your financial situation and how much you can afford. Many breeders will ask you if they have any pups left if they can call you?
Keep in mind that you may not plan on running hunt tests or field trials with your pup right now, but you may change your mind later. That's how we all started in these games. Trials and hunt test allow your hunting season to last all year.
Finally I would also like to add, do not limit your search for a pup to your immediate area. One dog I have I drove to Minneapolis and the other to Wisconsin. I was there and back in 8-9 hours with my pup.

Here is a great site if you are in the market for a pup.
Classifieds - Lab Puppies - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

Please take the time to view these vidoes and note that these diseases are 100% avoidable with testing.



 
#30 ·
First off I would like to apologize to the two people that sent me private messages that I hurt their feelings. My intentions were not to hurt anyone's feelings, but rather help prevent some heart ache down the road. If you wish to purchase a lab and only want to spend the equivilent of two tanks of gas on the friend you will have for the next twelve+ years that's your decision. I do want to make it clear that I am not selling puppies and that I have nothing to sell. I am simply taking my time to share this information with you.
I would also like to mention I believe that, this is a puppy buyers market, and I think you can still get a really nice pup, with clearances at a decent price. I would not recommend trying to talk a seller down on price, but instead let them know your financial situation and how much you can afford. Many breeders will ask you if they have any pups left if they can call you?
Keep in mind that you may not plan on running hunt tests or field trials with your pup right now, but you may change your mind later. That's how we all started in these games. Trials and hunt test allow your hunting season to last all year.
Finally I would also like to add, do not limit your search for a pup to your immediate area. One dog I have I drove to Minneapolis and the other to Wisconsin. I was there and back in 8-9 hours with my pup.

Here is a great site if you are in the market for a pup.
Classifieds - Lab Puppies - RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF

Please take the time to view these vidoes and note that these diseases are 100% avoidable with testing.

YouTube - U of M researchers discover gene causing collapse in dogs

YouTube - Meet Chico, my Labrador with Centronuclear Myopathy
IMHO Mark, I don't think you owe anyone an apology. What you ve been saying comes from someone with education and passion for the dog world.

One thing I have learned from being around true dog people that is everyone has there own opinion. Right or wrong, it does not do any good to argue.
If more people had the same opinion on breeding as you do there would not be so many unhealthy dogs out there.
 
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